GUI vs. command line recorder

Originally Posted by elch

Really? I was able to download *all* streams with either wget, msdl, MPlayer or VLC I've encountered so far.

I see fewer questions about it right now, but there were lots of problems with Windows Media streams. Some of them use authentication and password protection, and some of them use Windows Media Playlists. Take a look at iransima.ir for example.

Another problem is with HTTP streams, that use anti-leeching methods. Some of them can't be downloaded with the programs mentioned above. Although you can copy the streams from the cache of your browser.

Originally Posted by elch

Splitting and tagging is of course a different topic. That's very stream-dependent. I've given it up years ago because most streams just don't get it. Many streams send their tags delayed (ca. 5-10s is not uncommon). Some streams even put crap like the channel name into it. It's nearly impossible to have an application that covers all these cases. And if I really wanted to record such stream, I'd just try to write a script for it. I don't like bloat and a GUI application with 1000 switches and buttons to make it for the user as simple as possible to download streams just for the sake of having a graphical interface. Still, they'd need a tutorial because the application is so complicated but if a Windows user encounters a much simpler command line tool with fewer options, they'll start complaining...

Shoutcast rippers work fine most of the time. Besides analyzing ID3 tags changes, they can analyze pauses between music tracks. Of course when you have overlapping, the recording becomes much more difficult. But I'm not really interested in the songs that I can't record fully.

It reminds me the problems I see with Linux. Many programs are free, so developers stop working on them after a while, because they need to earn on their living.

And another problem is that for most users it is really hard to learn new things, especially if they require logical thinking and programmers' ideology while it can be so simple for a developer. It is even hard for users to switch from MS Office to Open Office, although their are pretty identical.

Developers of commercial GUI programs not only earn money for their living, but also provide services such as support and tutorials. Even if it is complicated for newbie, you can usually expect some kind of help. Of course services vary a lot on software vendor.

Originally Posted by elch

Ok, maybe you're right. I'm still not truly convinced because audio streams use the same protocols as video streams ...

Basically we are talking about the same thing. The same protocols are used. The only difference is that non-recordable and DRM protected streams are either recorded by screen video capture software or direct sound recording software

Originally Posted by elch

I've never needed rtmpsrv so far. It's just for debugging purposes or when you want to set up your own RTMP server. rtmpsuck is a Man-in-the-middle-attack (as known from SSL). It's for obtaining the parameters.

If I'm not mistaken, the latest version allows not only to get parameters, but also save the videos.

Originally Posted by elch

get-flash-videos is a tool that automates the process of extracting the RTMP parameters and downloads the stream afterwards. If you're stream hoster is supported by get-flash-videos, that's the way to go. But I don't use it because it uses Perl and it doesn't work too well if you're living not in the USA or UK like me. rtmpdump is really not difficult to use as long as you know how to get the parameters.

It is not difficult to use for an IT specialist. But I'm trying to help to newbies as well. Although I understand that this web-site is too technical.

Originally Posted by elch

That's a solution I'd only accept temporarily but when I decide to watch a TV station over a longer time, I definitely want the comfort of having a subscription list with series I fancy. As for BBC, I have a script that searches for new episodes. It generates a simple .sh file that serves as a queue. I can open it in VIM, uncomment episodes I don't want to download and then start the downloading with ./queue.sh I cannot remote-control a graphical user interface but I can do it with console tools.

That's really good. The problem is that newbies can't repeat your steps. It would be nice if everyone was able to do the same with a program using simple interface. Search, schedule, download.... and GUI (sorry, I don't really know how to make it more user friendly)

Originally Posted by elch

I totally agree. I don't like the command line either but it's the most simplest way to hack a program together. Designing GUIs takes much time and is so error-prone. Rolling out the first version of my BBC script took just a few hours, I wonder how much longer it would have taken with a GUI. The problem with command line is that most Linux guys see it as state-of-the-art. It's clearly not but it's easy to work with and great when automating tasks. As already stated, you can't automate a GUI the same way with the same flexibility as console applications. rtmpdump is only great when you use it as "backend" for downloading.

Originally Posted by elch

Why? Ok, that depends. For programmers, it's definitely worthwhile to look at existing protocols, what they do and how it's achieved. RTMP has definitely some nice aspects but it's overly complex. Adobe did some bad design choices but I'd rate RTMP just like HTTP. Both work but are far from being ideal.

Indeed it can be worthwhile for programmers.

[elch]

Originally Posted by Stream Recorder

Some of them use authentication and password protection, and some of them use Windows Media Playlists. Take a look at iransima.ir for example.

Works fine for me. Just try:
$ mplayer mms://live.iransima.ir/irib

It also works in msdl:
$ msdl mms://live.iransima.ir/irib2

Another problem is with HTTP streams, that use anti-leeching methods. Some of them can't be downloaded with the programs mentioned above. Although you can copy the streams from the cache of your browser.

I guess, they only check the User-Agent. Any decent HTTP client allows to change it. use --user-agent in wget to use a different one.

Originally Posted by hyc

Speaking as a developer, I don't even use rtmpdump by itself unless I'm testing something new. Usually I use get-flash-videos. I.e., for actual use, you almost always want to write some wrapper to handle the details for you. The real point, regarding the thread topic, is you can easily build anything else (including a GUI) on top of a good CLI tool. You cannot do the opposite.

To tell you the truth I wasn't expecting that. Personally I don't understand why get-flash-videos spend so much time making scripts for every particular web-site. I just adore the approach that is used by rtmpsuck. It seems to me to be a very useful as well as very intelligent work!!!

And I should point out that I'm not against CLI tools. I just want to emphasize the importance of GUI programs for regular users.

I synced my mobile phone with Evolution in Ubuntu using command line tools. I wasn't able to do the same with a bad GUI. But I would prefer to use something like ActiveSync, although the latter is not ideal and uses error-prone development approach.

Originally Posted by elch

Works fine for me. Just try:
$ mplayer mms://live.iransima.ir/irib

It also works in msdl:
$ msdl mms://live.iransima.ir/irib2

May be it works now. Back then most programs were able to download an ad only. Please post about it in the iransima.ir thread.

You can try to find more complicated cases where WM Recorder in the Pro mode was suggested to be used. It will be really interesting to see whether you can avoid capturing packets from Windows Media Player.

Originally Posted by elch

I guess, they only check the User-Agent. Any decent HTTP client allows to change it. use --user-agent in wget to use a different one.

A content provider can also allow to access the URL one time only. So when you find a URL with a URL finder, you can't use it anymore. You can of course try to analyze the page source and other things, but this needs time and knowledge... while one can use say Web Stream Dumper from RMC. Of course it can be interesting for a programmer to write a script, to learn something new about some technology, but this is a completer waste of time for regular users.
You can try to record streams where WebStreamDumper was suggested, if you want.

[hyc]

Originally Posted by Stream Recorder

To tell you the truth I wasn't expecting that. Personally I don't understand why get-flash-videos spend so much time making scripts for every particular web-site. I just adore the approach that is used by rtmpsuck. It seems to me to be a very useful as well as very intelligent work!!!

And I should point out that I'm not against CLI tools. I just want to emphasize the importance of GUI programs for regular users.

The reason to go to the trouble of writing get-flash-videos is because it works on any computer, regardless of whether Adobe supports it with a version of Flash or not. rtmpsuck is nice (if I do say so myself but it's entirely dependent on your computer already having a working copy of Adobe Flash. These other solutions work on anything - PS3, Xbox, smartphones, netbooks, whatever, and they don't chew up 100% of your CPU (and battery) while doing it.

Also, while many Flash streams are available in multiple quality levels, generally the client doesn't give the user any choice over which stream to play. So what you get via rtmpsuck is just whatever the client chose for you, which typically is not the best available. With scripts like get-flash-videos you can choose to always get the highest quality stream available, or something else if you have different needs (like downloading to an iPhone or G1 phone).

You should be noticing a theme here - the work we do gives the user freedom of choice - choice of what platform to use to view a stream, and choice of which stream to view. Both of these are choices that Adobe would deny you.

Downloading and timeshifting means you can get a higher quality stream, even though your network bandwidth is too slow to play it smoothly in realtime. So again, we give you the choice to watch what you want, when you want. The media providers would deny you that choice too; if you can't view the stream smoothly at the moment you're trying, on the network you're connected to, tough luck.

These are the reasons why I believe it's important to do work like the get-flash-videos team does, and the work we do. I'm not doing this to make a buck - there are plenty of easier ways to do that.

[hyc]

Originally Posted by Stream Recorder

Speaking as a developer, I don't even use rtmpdump by itself unless I'm testing something new. Usually I use get-flash-videos. I.e., for actual use, you almost always want to write some wrapper to handle the details for you. The real point, regarding the thread topic, is you can easily build anything else (including a GUI) on top of a good CLI tool. You cannot do the opposite.